rachels.haven's Journal

[Ridgetop]

So sorry that happened to you and your friend. It is so hard when something like this happens after all the hard work you put into your herd.

That happened to us too. We bought 2 does from a supposedly CAE clean Nubian herd, as well as taking a couple does to be bred there. The purchased bred doe delivered 4 preemie kids and died 2 days later. She never milked. The kids had almost no hair, couldn't stand, but survived and over the years they continued to test clean. (They didn't nurse.) Later we were warned that the breeder was known to keep CAE positive animals on her place. The other doeling we bought won everything in sight and was DS4's absolute favorite doe. She kidded and had dead twin does. When she tested positive for CAE she went to the auction the day after I got the results. These things happen in all species. Years ago, I bought a champion Holland Lop rabbit buck from a breeder in Oregon. It turned out he had vent disease. Goodbye 6 champion does that were bred to him before it was discovered. Same thing - afterward we found out he had a bad reputation for selling diseased animals.

The only way to contain CAE is to be there when the does kid and snatch the babies away immediately. Then heat treat all the colostrum and pasteurize all milk fed to kids. Pasteurizing milk and heat-treating colostrum kills the CAE virus in the milk. We put blue food color in the pasteurized milk and heat-treated colostrum, so we knew it was safe to feed the kids. We did not pasteurize our own house milk, but we kept the blue dyed pasteurized milk in a separate fridge in the garage. Freeze some heat-treated colostrum so you can feed the first of the new kids immediately with it. That way you don't have to wait to heat treat the colostrum when they are born. A pasteurizer that heat-treats as well as pasteurizes is not cheap, but it sure is worth the money in peace of mind. Heat treating and pasteurizing along with annual CAE testing even when all your animals are negative is the best way to go.

 

[Baymule]

That woman lied to both of you. I’m so disgusted with her and it’s not even my goats. I know all the hard work you put into your goats and the over the top great care they received. In your typical fashion, you didn’t hide it, but shared your heartbreak with your goat friends.

How can anyone be such a liar and a cheat? The word is out on her now. Wow. Just wow.

I hope you get your 4 negative test results.

 

[farmerjan]

So sorry for you and all you have gone through.... Have been wondering how things were... wish they didn't go the way they did...

 

[rachels.haven]

Thanks. That woman lied to your face in person when asked and on her website and fb page in writing to a lot of people now. The whole thing makes me sick too. She was minimizing and cutting losses while not dealing with the fallout if a positive herd as much as possible. Now we all get to deal with it.

The mentors I never wanted but am so glad to have suggested a sous vide for colostrum treatment and it can work for plain milk too but an instant pot or even just a pot on the stove works too (and of course pull and wash kids). Colostrum replacer or milk replacer can work too. Then I'm supposed to test and cull and stay on prevention. So that's what we'll do. The more I test and get negatives the more peace of mind I'll have, but prevention is insurance.
I've been trying to rally lately and be like, "let's do this!" but it's a bet if a disappointing mess, so being "rallied" kind of comes and goes. I still love my goats though (I just wish I could know if and who will come up positive NOW and not later so I could not love them too much, if that makes sense).

 

[Larsen Poultry Ranch]

I'm so sorry this happened to you and I hope your goats beat the odds and are all safe.

Is there anyone you can report this lady to? Maybe for fraud? Since she intentionally mislead you regarding the health status of goats you purchased from her? Report her to the agricultural health department if there's such a thing? She's intentionally spreading a communicable disease for her own profit. Would this be considered animal abuse? I know some people who are convicted of animal abuse are barred from owning animals for a time period or forever depending on the severity.

 

[rachels.haven]

I'm so sorry this happened to you and I hope your goats beat the odds and are all safe.

Is there anyone you can report this lady to? Maybe for fraud? Since she intentionally mislead you regarding the health status of goats you purchased from her? Report her to the agricultural health department if there's such a thing? She's intentionally spreading a communicable disease for her own profit. Would this be considered animal abuse? I know some people who are convicted of animal abuse are barred from owning animals for a time period or forever depending on the severity.

Based on the conditions I saw while there and the test results she's going to have something like 50-80 does kidding, crashing from CAE and dying all over the place in the next few weeks. Several does in the pasture where she was running her for sale goats were worse off than my crashing one when I got her. I don't want to think about what that lot looks like now. On my front I don't think I have to do anything more than privately telling people that ask where our positive does came from and document what we're doing. Lying and repeatedly selling CAE positive does as negative is a massive sin in the goat world. Her herd is dying and people are talking about her, both as a natural concequence of her own actions. She gets to watch her animals suffer and die.

I really don't want anything more to do with her. If I get my purchase price for those does back, that's great, but it's kind of a drop in the bucket compared to what I've lost this year.

 

[Baymule]

I like the reporting her idea. Can you report her to the breed registry ?

 

[Larsen Poultry Ranch]

I guess I am more scorched earth angry when someone messes with me like that; I totally get wanting to be done with her and moving on though. Sending lots of hugs your way.

 

[Ridgetop]

There is no organization to report her to. ADGA does not deal with health issues. They deal with registration issues, shows, etc. The problem with reporting the breeder is that unless you can prove that she tested the individual goats she sold, received Positive CAE results on those particular goats before the sale, then lied and said those particular goats were negative in order to sell them to unwary customers, it will be hard to prove fraud. If she didn't test (which is what a lot of people do if they are afraid of the results) she can claim that her herd is negative since she has not received any positive test results, even though she did not test. And then even if you get a positive result on the goats you bought, you have to prove that she knew the goat was already positive at the time of the sale and did not catch the disease from your herd after leaving her premises. Since that is what her defense would be, it will be hard to prove anything. The best thing to do is what rachels.haven has done - let everyone know that the does she purchased as negative for CAE are actually positive. The shame is that other goat people did not give rachels.haven the information (or even gossip) about this woman before she bought the goats.

However, if you pasteurized all milk from the CAE positive does before feeding the chances of the kids contracting the virus is almost 0%. CAE positive goats can sometimes pass it along to negative goats through blood (butting heads), saliva (sharing water buckets), breeding (rarely), etc. It happens but is rare. The chances are greater if the number of positive goats is very high, i.e. bringing a negative animal into a herd of mostly positive goats, or if the does are in a communal kidding situation where they will be exposed to birth atter and raw milk.

When CAE first was discovered in the 1970's, it was not considered a problem since positive goats rarely showed clinical signs. By the 1990's 80% of goats had contracted it. With that many cases the affected goats could not just be culled and destroyed. In the 80's and 90's a large push to eradicate CAE began by immediately removing kids at birth, heat treating and pasteurizing all milk before bottle feeding, blood testing and isolating positive animals, and maintaining CAE testing herd records. Since then most good breeders have been able to establish and maintain CAE free herds. Not all goats that contract CAE show symptoms, get sick or die. Most carriers look healthy for years and die of old age. An acquaintance of mine (4-H parent) asked us to transport a couple goats home from a show because his truck had broken down. After delivering the goats to his house in the trailer with our goats, we found out that the child's showmanship doe was CAE positive! She looked fat and healthy and they kept her and continued to breed and show her.

Continue testing. If your best animals (I know you have some good Lucky Star animals) test positive, don't give up hope. Don't destroy them either, you can breed them, remove the kids immediately and raise the kids on pasteurized milk or replacer. I wish I had known about this before you dumped all your kids because if you were raising them on pasteurized milk and heat treated colostrum they were probably safe.
So sad for you having to go through this when you have been so careful about your goats.

 

[Bruce]

What a sucky situation I think you are handling it better than I would but you've got your head down and are moving forward with a good plan. I do not know, but would think, that when you have quarterly negative tests you'll find buyers because YOU have proof the goats are not infected and you will provide that even without being asked.

If she didn't test (which is what a lot of people do if they are afraid of the results) she can claim that her herd is negative since she has not received any positive test results, even though she did not test.

Is that really true? There are a lot of possible semantics but saying your herd is negative would mean they HAD to be tested. You can't KNOW they are negative otherwise; as you said, they don't always show signs of illness. Now a low life like this lady could say "I've never had a goat test positive". THAT is a true statement if she never tested but doesn't mean they aren't positive. That statement isn't claiming they are NOT positive or saying that they ARE negative. She is letting the buyer assume they are negative.

I can SAY my chickens don't have Salmonella because I've never seen any signs of any illness in my flock. Those that dropped dead from fatty liver disease looked perfectly healthy half an hour earlier and it isn't a transmissible disease. But I do not KNOW they don't have Salmonella. I don't even know if there is a test for it.