rachels.haven's Journal

[rachels.haven]

The kids were on unpasteurized milk unfortunately and was likely contaminated at least once. No one is positive yet of my own original herd. The two new does with their positives went. We'll retest every month and cull positives asap. Considering no test results were forthcoming they are likely either contradictory to their claim or non existent. Incomplete is another option. And they can always be faked or what not.
I'm not sure how people feel about expensive annual or bi-annual testing around here (even though the state offers all but CL for free). Plus, there's always the cultural attitude of "if you don't get caught the rules, ie: test results, don't apply". Normally I feel some of that is healthy in life. No so much if it has to due with deceiving and hurting others. Think it through. Keep it harmless. And probably to a minimum.

 

[Margali]

I'm not sue happy but I say this is the correct time. I don't recall which state you live in. In Texas, it is only $54 to file in small claims court and additional $22 for the jury trial. Texas small claims court goes up to $20,000 value under contention.

You have pictures of goats and their condition at purchase, positive test results, and testimony from others that she fraudulently sells diseased animals as 'tested clean". I would add up the cost of all the animals you had to sell at a loss, labor of birthing them, feed, etc. and sue her for that plus estimated cost for disease prevention protocol for next couple of years.

This SUCKS! I am sorry you have to go thru this.

 

[Ridgetop]

Is that really true? There are a lot of possible semantics but saying your herd is negative would mean they HAD to be tested. You can't KNOW they are negative otherwise; as you said, they don't always show signs of illness. Now a low life like this lady could say "I've never had a goat test positive". THAT is a true statement if she never tested but doesn't mean they aren't positive. That statement isn't claiming they are NOT positive or saying that they ARE negative. She is letting the buyer assume they are negative.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it. However, over the years I have known quite a few breeders of different species who denied that they have a certain disease whether it is CAE in goats, hip dysplasia in dogs, etc. because they have never tested for it and thus have never had a positive test. These are usually the people who claim that they "don't have that disease in my bloodline, kennel, barn, etc." They don't know if they have it or not, but if they don't test they can tell themselves they don't have it and no one can prove that they do. UNTIL someone buys an animal from them that turns up with it. I am not saying that these people are honest, rather they avoid having to admit they have any disease in their bloodline by not having any tests that might be positive.

We used to draw blood every year and send it to Washington State U which at that time was the only CAE testing on the west coast. We heat treated and pasteurized all milk fed to kids to eliminate the chance of CAE even though the does always tested negative. We tested every animal on the property regardless of whether they had a negative test the previous year because we were showing our animals. (we had 2 in 16 years - one a purchased doe, and one of our own that had gone to that breeder for stud service) Any positive test animal was immediately removed and taken to the auction. The auction barn is usually where unwanted or unhealthy animals end up. This is why I don't buy any auction barn animals. Sales auctions at purebred association shows require animals to have a vet health certificate and often undergo a health inspection on arrival.

 

[rachels.haven]

We won't be taking anyone to court. My husband doesn't have the stomach for it and I probably don't have the right pics or their lawywer will be better et c...
It would be a really nice gesture if the lady did step forward with the test results that she claims to have and she can't really make it right, but if she could at least make a gesture by refunding the purchase price of the diseased does.

Though like any sane person after their trust is broken I have my doubts of their decency and I doubt it will happen especially as more time goes by.

 

[rachels.haven]

Forgot to mention, Galaxy, Dan's nubian, kidded yesterday, twin bucklings by a lamancha sire. Meat wethers. Probably a good thing to practice prevention on (although Galaxy and the rest of my goats were negative at last test).

The sous vide heat treats quart jars of colostrum in it's waterbath just fine-heat the jar up on the stove with a thermometer, remove and put on counter, add the sous vide which maintains heat, and plug it in and forget it with a low/high alarm on the thermometer. And I made little tiny pork and beef steaks in bags at the same time today. I could totally make the gadget heat the water, but I'm impatient.

I'm also impatient to continue retesting my herd but it hasn't been a month yet. Not knowing the eventual outcome and who will be culled isn't fun.

Apparently we could have two years of this testing even if we are all negative forever. The australian documentation says that they've had a few instances of converting around that time length. Gotta catch them all and save the rest if I can, I guess. Also better than testing monthly for the does' whole lives. I'd like to go back to every 6-12 months (6 probably now).

 

[Ridgetop]

Regardless, you need to buy a pasteurizer that also heat treats colostrum. You will need to continue to heat treat all colostrum and pasteurize all milkfed to kids in case one of your does tuns positive between testings.

This is one that I found on Hoegger Goat Supply website. $399.95 2 gallon capacity (standard for home pasteurizers), all stainless steel, with timers, it does colostrum heat treating, standard pasteurizing, and this one also will make cheese. Whether you are testing your does every year, every 6 months, or every couple days, the chance that they can become positive in between testings is the real danger if you are allowing nursing, or don't pasteurize the milk you feed to the kids. You must pull all kids at birth from now on and bottle feed pasteurized milk. By heat treating and pasteurizing every drop of colostrum and milk you feed even if a doe shows up with a positive test down the road, your kids will be clean from CAE due to diligent pasteurization. I know that this is a lot more work than allowing kids to nurse, but it is the only way to be sure that your kids are CAE free. You also have to be diligent about udder washing and teat dipping to seal the teats closed after milking.

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Pasteurizer/Cheese Vat​

Granted, milking every 12 hours for a 10 month lactation and bottle feeding is a lot more work. And the cost of the pasteurizer is $400 but if you are investing money in high quality goats like Lucky Star LaManchas, etc., $400 is nothing. And compared to the amount you have lost with having to dispose of all those nice goats you had, the cost of this pasteurizer is still nothing. Please do yourself a favor and order it NOW.

We were raising dairy goats in the late 80's when CAE was very prevalent. There was a lot of it around and luckily the woman we bought our first milkers from was adamant about pasteurization. They were twin sister Nubians nd had their milk stars t 2 years old because the breeder was putting a milk star on their sire. Along with the stainless steel milk pail, strainer, and filters, I bought a pasteurizer. Back then the pasteurizers did not heat treat and you had to do that on the stove with a thermometer. Eventually I bought a second pasteurizer that heat treated and that really made life easier. We were so strict about heat treating and pasteurizing that in 16 years and over 100 dairy does we only ever had one case of CAE positive in our own goats, and one positive in a doe we bought. The positive in our own breeding was a doe that went to be bred where the positive doe came from. We didn't even kid her out, just dumped them both at the auction. The purchased doe had just won Junior Grand Champion at the Fair so you can understand how upset we were. Plus she was DS3's favorite.

By the time we sold out after 16 years, we were on test, milking 15 does every 12 hours, and I ran 3 pasteurizers twice every morning - 12 gallons of milk daily for goat kids. (We didn't pasteurize the house milk we drank.) As soon as the milk was pasteurized, I put 3 drops of blue or green food coloring in the tank before transferring the milk to gallon jars to store it in the garage fridge. Coloring the pasteurized milk made sure that there was no mistake in feeding the goat kids. Once all the goat kids were weaned I didn't have to worry about the milk anymore and we fed bull calves both pasteurized and unpasteurized milk. We did eventually buy a milking machine.

We used Iodophor from Caprine Supply which I don't think you can get anymore. It is a very highly concentrated iodine wash that we diluted with hot or warm water (more comfortable to have udders washed with warm water). However, Caprine Supply still carries a concentrated iodine based udder wash available in gallon size for $33. I used t buy Iodophor by the case when I found it at the local dairy supply store instead of paying a huge shipping charge for the gallon container. A gallon goes a long way since you are diluting it. Many goat breeder friends recommended bleach in warm water, since it was much cheaper. bleach is hard on udders and hands as well as not being as effective at disinfecting as the iodine based stuff.

I really am so sorry about this situation you are dealing with. I hope you are not upset at all the stuff I am telling you to do, but I just feel so bad that you have lost so many lovely goats, along with your special kid crop this year. I just can't stop thinking about you and your awful situation.











5.00
Finally, a machine that can pasteurize, heat treat colostrum, and function as a cheese vat. Digital temperature control is easy to set and will hold milk, colostrum, or your favorite cheese recipe at the correct temperature for as long as needed. Two-gallon capacity is perfect for almost every cheese recipe. This is the most affordable and versatile pasteurizer on the market today. Includes operating instructions, all stainless steel pails, and a digital control temperature regulator. This regulator will turn your device on/off as programmed and keeps the temperature within the desired range. Comes with a 3m(9.8ft) probe sensor. Measure range is -58 ~ 230°F(-50 ~ 110°C). Uses 110v household current This machine takes the guesswork out of milk processing and cheesemaking.

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• $399.95

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[SageHill]

I've been reading through this entire "saga" for lack of a better word. It just makes my blood boil that people like that exist. SOOO MAD and they aren't my goats. You are going about the recovery process in the best way possible. So much more work, time, effort, expense all because someone is worse than a total jerk (and doesn't deserve to own even a grasshopper in a jar).
It wouldn't be easy to throw in the towel and give up - but it would sure cross my mind.
Hang in there - you are handling this like a pro. As for the sue her thing - that takes more time and more money without any guarantee and a lot more angst.

 

[Ridgetop]

Suing is not worth the money if you hire an attorney. You could go to Small Claims Court and see about getting back the money you paid for the positive goats BUT did she put in writing that they were tested or that they were guaranteed free of CAE? If not, the suit would be iffy to prove and since most judges don't have any idea about livestock, diseases, health guarantees, registration papers, values, etc. you might not win. And if she offered to "replace" the goats the judge might say that was fair and rule for that - which would be worth nothing since they would be positive too. And since you have gotten rid of the goats she sold you, you can't return them for the $$$ if the judge rules to do that.

 

[rachels.haven]

Thank you, @Ridgetop . That may be in the works. I was wondering where to find them. So far using my thermometer with a high and low alarm, a spoon for stirring and a big pot for milk and a sous vide and jars for colostrum is working for two. It will probably work for 4 or 5...but when I start breeding again in earnest there will be more than 4 or 5 kids to feed in the spring. Yikes, that's a scary idea. Lotsa goat kids on prevention.

 

[Ridgetop]

It becomes natural after the first year or two.