Severe Bloat (Sad Ending - Page 4)

[Livinwright Farm]

What I neglected to post in the necrtopsy results post, was that the vet waited a couple hours before doing the necropsy(where minnie had already been dead for roughly 1.5 hrs when we reached the vet, not so sure it was severe bloat). We all know how a ruman bloats after death. The vet said that the obstruction in her bowel shouldn't have been large enough to cause an issue, however, I had seen Minnie try to poop the night before she died and nothing had come out. Nothing.

Like I said, since apparently it couldn't possibly have been a bad reaction to the Ivomec, it HAD to have been the new alfalfa from TSC.

I do not see how it could possibly have been the produce given to her 4 days prior to her showing any sign of bloat. This is not a matter of pride, but of clear facts.

Also, I do take a bit of offenseat the fact that anyone would think that I wouldn't check over any item for potential mold, or any forein objects, prior to giving it to my animals. This is a animal safty 101 thing. We NEVER feed moldy items or even items that are squishy from "over ripe"-ness.

I understand that if they do not have normal access to an item, it can wreak havok... like pasture scours & bloat for example, which I know more than a few members here have an issue with every spring. It comes from their " MUST HAVE GREEN THINGS" impulse if they do not get green things through the winter. However, if they are given green things through the winter(like my herd does), they will not get pasture scours or bloat come spring.

Again, up until this new alfalfa hay, none of our goats have ever had an issue with scours or bloat from eating the produce we offer. And the only case of scours we had this year were with HighNote, and it was due to cocci.

 

[elevan]

You are trying to reduce your farm's expenses when it comes to feeding pelleted grain by providing them with produce scraps from your local grocery (?)...and that I can certainly understand. You're also admitting fairly new to goats and their nutrition...please understand everyone here wants to help.

The produce that we humans choose to eat is often "richer" than what your typical goat would be used to. Diet is the cause of bloat...not medicines. So Ivomec wasn't the cause here - Diet was...whether it was the molasses misted alfalfa, the produce trimmings or whatever...but it was food that caused her to bloat.

Minnie was fairly new to your farm, so you didn't know if she had a predisposition to bloat (some goats do). And you believe that she was recently settled...hormonal changes can change the "ballgame" in any species and could have made her more susceptible to bloat even if she wasn't before.

You mentioned that the bulk of this last bit of produce trimmings was corn husks. Corn husks can ferment rather quickly....which is why some farmers use it to create silage. The corn husks could have begun fermenting without your realizing it...especially if they were in with "wet" produce trimmings. You admitted you feed those trimmings over several days - plenty of time to start fermenting. Fermented feeds are not good for goats and WILL cause bloat.

I strongly suggest that you step back and re-evaluate. Seeing posts about deadstock breaks everyone's hearts....we wouldn't be saying this if we weren't trying to help. I know that "knowing" it was the produce is gonna make you feel like "you" killed her. Have a cry and learn from it. We all make mistakes whether we're just starting out or into it a while...it becomes a tragedy when you don't learn from them because failure to learn from your mistakes will result in them being repeated.

I truly believe that some of the people here want to help, however there are others who only wish to add insult to injury.
We may be "new"(owning/raising goats for a year), but it does not mean that we have not done any research. I do not care for the overwhelming air of "I know everything and you are an idiot" that is being thrown in our direction by certain members here.

We have not said that we give produce to reduce the cost of feeding our animals. We offer produce for these reasons: 1) it keeps them from getting pasture bloat come spring, 2) Added nutrition to keep them in prime condition, 3) for the sheer fact that they enjoy it. Yes, it is a bonus that the produce they get is at no cost to us.

I will restate: The last produce minnie had/ate was on Sunday. She had the plain alfalfa hay(dried, cut & shrinkwrapped{not molasses misted} from TSC- new to her diet) on Wednesday. This was a small amount(roughly 2 cups) mixed with their normal hay, and everyone ate it. She didn't show signs of bloat until Thursday(4 days after the produce).

The corn husks are nothing new(in every bag), and go to the goats the same day they are removed from the ears.


To all:
Since no one here thinks that Minnie could have had a bad reaction to the Ivomec 1% Ivermectin injectable for catte given orally, the only other change to her diet was a small amount of the straight dry, cut & shrinkwrapped alfalfa hay that we puchased at TSC. Everything else she ate was not abnormal food stuffs for any of our goats.

Also, our farm is not the only one on here that gives produce in heaps to their goats without having any issues.

I could have swore that you posted in another thread that you gave the produce as a way to reduce feed costs...my apologies on implying that then...

As to the hay, I guess I'm confused because you're stating 2 different things in the same thread...
From post #48 this thread:

So I gave her a selection of her normal faves(molasses misted alfalfa, regular hay, a black birch branch, etc)... I wasn't expecting her to be so horrible this morning... though looking back I should have only given her the regular hay until she was back to 100%.

From post #66 this thread:

I will restate: The last produce minnie had/ate was on Sunday. She had the plain alfalfa hay(dried, cut & shrinkwrapped{not molasses misted} from TSC- new to her diet) on Wednesday. This was a small amount(roughly 2 cups) mixed with their normal hay, and everyone ate it. She didn't show signs of bloat until Thursday(4 days after the produce).

We offer produce for these reasons: 1) it keeps them from getting pasture bloat come spring, 2) Added nutrition to keep them in prime condition, 3) for the sheer fact that they enjoy it. Yes, it is a bonus that the produce they get is at no cost to us.

1: How is fresh spring pasture gonna be a worse cause of bloat than a bag of rich produce trimmings?
2: If you're feeding a pelleted feed and offering loose minerals, they are getting the nutrition that they need without adding a bonus for them.
3: Hate to say it but that's how America became know as "The fattest nation" because we overindulge in what we love to eat...and we tend to offer too many "treats" to our animals too.


Maybe you're providing more information that what is needed to help you and confusing things. What did Minnie eat in the 24 HOURS before she bloated??


Regardless, I think you should re-evaluate things...and I'm sorry if that offends you...but please step back from your pride. And I know that there are people on this forum who you but heads against (me too) but they too are trying to help. NO ONE wants to see anyone's goats die...everyone is here to share / learn / help or why the heck would we waste our time? I know you're hurting and feeling ganged up against...that's not the case, we're only trying to HELP you AND your goats. Period.

 

[Emmetts Dairy]

Not every goat is the same, much like people. You cannot exclude the possibility that the Ivomec is what caused her to bloat just because none of your animals have.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not suggest that our farm's feeding practices are in any way harming our animals! If you look at every thread I have posted on regarding what we feed our goats, you will see that they get Noble Goat or Dumor pelleted goat feed, Probiotic podwer, Free choice: Browse, Manna Pro Goat Mineral, salt block, water and good quality hay. So, unless you are seriously suggesting that it takes a goat 3-4 days to process produce(mostly corn husks), it was not the produce that caused her to bloat.

As I stated previously, all of our animals get produce for 3-4 days every week, and none of them have EVER had a problem with it. Please remember what the moderators & administrators say, which is that we are to respect each other's feeding & handling practices.
Suggestions - I don't mind.
Being told that I am causing harm to my animals when I most certainly am not- THAT I mind.

I HIGHLY RECOMEND YOU READ THIS INFORMATION. YOU ARE CAUSING HARM TO YOUR ANIMALS BY TAKING OFFENSE AND NOT LISTENING TO SOUND, VALID INFORMATION!!

http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

EVERYTHING YOU ARE DISPUTING IS CLEARLY STATED HERE AS CAUSES OF BLOAT. Feeding practices is what ABSOLUTLEY causes bloat!! Not medications or wormers. Please dont let your emotions run away with you. Who cares if someone offended you. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT HERE IS THE HEALTH OF YOUR HERD...NOT YOUR PRIDE!! I really wish you would come around and forget about being offended. Personally Im kinda offended that you wont hear people out and ignore things that personally offend you to save the life of a goat. I think your a better person than this..and I think you really love your goats...so PLEASE relax and open your mind to these suggestions. We have all made mistakes and lost animals...but take the advice and prevent from losing anyone else.

I hope for you and you herd...you can relax your emotions and listen. Google it if you dont want to listen to people on this forum. But please get the info somehow.

 

[mlw987m]

I bookmarked the link above, thank you - Also, I am so sorry for your loss

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

I sorta regret bringing up the alfalfa as a potential cause, so just to clarify why I mentioned it to begin with is that I've seen references to FRESHLY CUT/BALED alfalfa as a cause of bloat. I'd be highly surprised if baled and bagged processed alfalfa was a culprit UNLESS the goat wasn't used to eating it or the quantity was rapidly and dramatically increased.

 

[Emmetts Dairy]

1: How is fresh spring pasture gonna be a worse cause of bloat than a bag of rich produce trimmings?
2: If you're feeding a pelleted feed and offering loose minerals, they are getting the nutrition that they need without adding a bonus for them.
3: Hate to say it but that's how America became know as "The fattest nation" because we overindulge in what we love to eat...and we tend to offer too many "treats" to our animals too.

I could'nt agree more Elevan...and Im and done commenting on this post. It seems more important to be right and split hairs about statements made and retracted and changed than the actual health and life of the goats. So I choose not to participate in this any longer...cuz in the end...the only ones that are hurting are the goats and thats dishearting to me.

PS I just want to add...that I was just accused of causing the death to her goat on a facebook post..by suggesting to her the other night, when her goat was down, that it was bloat...and to begin treating the goat with baking soda and molasses mix to help treat the bloat. I was told her vet said that the mixture caused the frothy bloat and should never be done. It is the most ridiculous statements Ive ever heard.

So I just wanna to explain WHY I am no longer participating in this circus. Sorry all other BYHers...but Im just a little offended by this all.

 

[kstaven]

I think the OP has heard the advice enough times folks. Although of value, the tone of the some advice and accusatory commentary does not need to be included and does nothing to help.

What I have not seen asked in the history of this thread is one person who clearly asked: "What is growing on the property the goats may be eating at this time of year?" I think all of us know that many times it is not one item on its own in the diet that creates an issue, but the combination of several that can cause a huge issue.

So while it is well established that diet and bloat are most times synonomous restating this over and over does nothing to help or educate the OP or others who read this thread.

This board was established to educate and assist the animal owner and expose them to the multiple ways of tackling problems. It was never meant to be a my way is right and your wrong debate forum.Best we all remember that when posting.

Kurtis
Moderator

 

[Livinwright Farm]

So everyone knows, it was not us that said that giving molasses mixed with baking soda makes regular bloat turn into a severe case of frothy bloat. It was in fact Dr. Murdock at Pembroke Animal Hospital: a small ruminant veterinarian... If anyone disagrees with this, please take the issue up with her! And your 3rd grade science teacher! If I had known before hand that molasses was an acid, I would have disregarded the advice of adding molasses to the baking soda, and would have just mixed the baking soda with water.

Do the experiment sometime, and find out the results for yourself.

I am done with this forum, and the "I know it all's "Who obviously don't, but think they do, and get away with trashing other members' practices continually! This is not the helpful forum that it once was. Sad.

 

[Livinwright Farm]

I think the OP has heard the advice enough times folks. Although of value, the tone of the some advice and accusatory commentary does not need to be included and does nothing to help.

What I have not seen asked in the history of this thread is one person who clearly asked: "What is growing on the property the goats may be eating at this time of year?" I think all of us know that many times it is not one item on its own in the diet that creates an issue, but the combination of several that can cause a huge issue.

So while it is well established that diet and bloat are most times synonomous restating this over and over does nothing to help or educate the OP or others who read this thread.

This board was established to educate and assist the animal owner and expose them to the multiple ways of tackling problems. It was never meant to be a my way is right and your wrong debate forum.Best we all remember that when posting.

Kurtis
Moderator

Thank you, Kurtis, for your intervention here, but I am still done with the forum at this time.

 

[Emmetts Dairy]

So everyone knows, it was not us that said that giving molasses mixed with baking soda makes regular bloat turn into a severe case of frothy bloat. It was in fact Dr. Murdock at Pembroke Animal Hospital: a small ruminant veterinarian... If anyone disagrees with this, please take the issue up with her! And your 3rd grade science teacher! If I had known before hand that molasses was an acid, I would have disregarded the advice of adding molasses to the baking soda, and would have just mixed the baking soda with water.

Do the experiment sometime, and find out the results for yourself.

I am done with this forum, and the "I know it all's "Who obviously don't, but think they do, and get away with trashing other members' practices continually! This is not the helpful forum that it once was. Sad.

FYI Molasses is not an acid...it is listed having alkaling properties. Ive have posted this not be combative but moreover to be informative to others who may be viewing this post. Baking soda, molasses and water mixtures are used very often to begin treatment for bloating in goats. I personally have used it for years in the spring when fresh browse is appearing and my goats get a mild bloat from the new greens after the winter months. I have never lost a goat from bloat nor has this mixture ever caused a frothy bloat in any of my goats over the years.

ALKALIZING PROPERTIES:

Alkaline Antioxidant Water
Apple Cider Vinegar
Bee Pollen
Fresh Fruit Juice
Green Juices
Lecithin Granules
Mineral Water
Molasses, blackstrap
Probiotic Cultures
Soured Dairy Products
Veggie Juices