What kind of Guardian does your herd have?

[elevan]

Elevan, I started w/ a guard llama (we actually used to have 8 llamas as 'pets' before we got into goats), he did a *fantastic* job guarding the goats / sheep / other llamas....only trouble w/ him was that he didn't care if a coon / opossum / skunk came in and treated our coop like an all night buffet. They weren't 'predators' in his eyes, I guess.

Since birds used to be a big part of our operation, I *had* to have something that would protect them, too.

My llama protects the chickens during the day...at night he's in the barn with the goats though (unless he's sleeping right outside the door).

The only night attack we had on our chickens was a month after we got the llama and the coop wasn't where he could have helped anyway. Now all of our coops are in the main pasture...and I build them like they are a chicken fort knox.

The large llama breeder around the corner from me has dogs (pets) but has to train them to stay away from the llamas...even the ones who aren't guards would love to stomp them to death.

The llama who guards sheep around the corner recently flattened a coyote.

Thank goodness my boy hasn't had to kill anything *yet* but he's tried to attack the neighbors dogs through the fence a few times. Our dogs are on his radar but he's a little more relaxed with them unless they bark at the fence.

But I have decided that when Jerry passes or is no longer able to do his job that we'll be going with an LGD...I might have to take a trip to go visit MonsterMalak...his Boz are incredible.

 

[rockdoveranch]

MonsterMalak,

Help me out here. I pulled out my book, Livestock Protection Dogs by Dawydiak and Sims. Does the Boz go by any other name?

The book is saying that the Turks refer to "shepherd dogs" as coban kopegi and use the terms Akbash, Akkush, Kangal and Karabash to denote regional breeds. It goes on to say that the first importers to the United States brought dogs from the Anatolian plateau of Turkey and thus called them Anatolian Shepherd Dog.

Is there a better LGD book I should buy?

Thanks.

 

[ksalvagno]

I had a guard llama and loved her. When I had 2 guard llamas, one would herd the alpacas back to the barn and the other one would stay with the "predator". I loved having a guard llama. But after our barns flooded twice this year, we decided to downsize to a small enough amount of animals that we can herd into our trailer and just take the trailer out to the front if we have flooding threats. So that left us with just having the Nigerian Dwarf goats. The llama would be too big and at this point we wouldn't even want a dog or anything. But so far predators aren't really a threat around here.

I would probably get a dog if we felt we needed some type of LGD. Since this is my last year in alpacas, I don't want to have to worry about shearing or anything with the llamas.

 

[dshappychicks]

We had a golden/pyr mix, the best representation of both breeds! THE GREATEST!! He had been trained very well. He understood hand signals, came when you called him, everything you could want in a lgd. Was very gentle with grandkids and although we don't have any livestock except chickens. He would make his way around the perimeter of the yard every eve. Had his great deep/low bark. Wouldn't hurt a fly, but if anyone came up the driveway, his bark and size would cause a hesitation. Always felt safe with him around! He was the color of a golden, but was all pyr in every other respect. So Smart! Had been a pet of friends of ours that moved here from alaska, but the youngest developed an allergy to him so they gave him to us. We had him about 1 yr. We thought we had trained him enough about the road, but apparently something enticed him to cross, probably a deer as they like to go to the pond there, and he got hit this past march. We still mourn for him. We are trying to find another mix like him. So if anyone knows where we can get a golden/pyr mix, please let us know. We live in sw ohio. We are thinking of getting some highland cattle and want to get another.

 

[lgdnevada]

MonsterMalak,

Help me out here. I pulled out my book, Livestock Protection Dogs by Dawydiak and Sims. Does the Boz go by any other name?

The book is saying that the Turks refer to "shepherd dogs" as coban kopegi and use the terms Akbash, Akkush, Kangal and Karabash to denote regional breeds. It goes on to say that the first importers to the United States brought dogs from the Anatolian plateau of Turkey and thus called them Anatolian Shepherd Dog.

Is there a better LGD book I should buy?

Thanks.

Honestly the two LGD books out there are so-so, they have some good info and some really bad info in them both....on more rare breeds like Spanish Mastiff, there is a lot if misinfo in them I do know that, also the 'how to' parts....I differ strongly with some of their points.... I personally have looked to reading books from EU and Turkey for more accurate information about breeds, how to raise them, etc. And, these two LGD books here, they do not include the Boz most likely because they never heard of it. It is a separate Turkish breed. Turkish Boz Coban Kopekleri. It is NOT a cross bred mongrel mix of Kangal and Mastiff, as we (Monster Malak) have heard some Kangal people in this country are claiming they are. They are grossly misinformed...... It is extremely rare outside of Turkey. How rare - there are only five here in the US at this moment. Two more coming in from Germany by the end of this month. The Boz comes from the Urfa Mt. region in Turkey. Monster Malak and I are trying to get a breed club going here and working with the top Turkish breeder of Boz to help the breed get off the ground here. They are in looks, much like a Kangal but stockier, bigge. Like a Kangal on steroids to give you an idea of the breed's strength and agility. Males can reach 41" at shoulder, average is probably closer to 36-38".

The Anatolian in Turkey is what they often call their crossbred/mixed breeding dogs. It does not get the 'status' afforded it here in the US where it is AKC recognized, and shown. The Kangal, the Boz, the Malakli and Akbas are recognized over there as being the pure dogs...and names...augh...so many different names, some denote color. I don't want to step into the Kangal or Anatolian controversy but suffice to say, some dogs that have been brought over here from Turkey said to be Kangals, are really Anatolians, and vice versa. There are some who claim only 'real' Kangals come out of Sivas region; this is not true, there are just as many who say otherwise; the whole Anatolian/Kangal topic can be a can of worms....grin.....people arguing over color, black faces, white heads, etc......no socks allowed etc. I've seen everything and can only come away shaking my head saying well, at some point they all were related!!!!! ;~)

 

[carolinagirl]

one thing that puzzles me is if you go to Boz kennel's facebook page where it shows all the awards he was won with his dogs, they were all in the kangal class....none in this "Turkish Boz Coban Kopekleri" class. Every attempt I made on the web to find out more info about Boz lead me to only two sources.....either boz kennels (mostly youtube videos), references to boz kennel's "fighting dogs" and posts that MonsterMalak has scattered out into every dog forum promoting this breed. This is an interesting reference regarding the dogs of Turkey and it does not mention a Boz either. http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-001.htm Another reference I found credits Boz Kennel with the development of this breed. Kind of confusing. I'd sure love some links that tell us more about these dogs, if you have them. I tried and had no luck. thanks!

Edit....found another turkish link (had to translate it) that calls Boz a new race. It almost seems like Boz kennels created this breed from the Kangal in order to get a better fighting dog and to get a dog that could be exported, since Kangals can't be anymore.

I don't want to get into the whole Anatolian/kangal debate either. I know that Anatolians as a breed don't exist in Turkey. The breed as WE know it was brought from Turkey and the original foundation dogs were probably a mixed group of similar Turkish Shepherd dogs. Once here (and in other countries) the standard was developed and breeding towards that standard begun in earnest. I do think that most of the dogs sold in this country as unregistered Kangal, Akbash and Karabash are probably the same genetics as what we call Anatolian, with the exception being dogs that were directly imported and the bloodlines kept pure.
Some interesting links...

http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-006.htm

This link is in Turkish but if you have google translator on your browser you can read it. Pretty interesting!

http://www.yorukanatolian.com/Çoban-İti-Makaleleri.php

 

[lgdnevada]

There are more Boz out there. Many of the photos of Boz on MM's page are not from the one breeder you refer to, they are other people with Boz. The problem is, when you search, you can't find these things because they are in Turkish, and even googling "Boz" will not always bring up what is out there. You are referring too, to a breed that is mostly owned by shepherds who live out with sheep and don't 'do' the Internet. If it weren't for a few guys in Turkey who have started to put stuff up on the web about Boz, there would not be anything much out there on Boz. I had a Turkish man in Nevada call me two days ago about Kangal pups. I mentioned Boz to him and he right away, knew exactly what I was referring to, also, the difference between Boz and Kangals. So no, this is not just two or three people with Boz. Its just that there are only a handful of people in Turkey who promote them and breed them. The one breeder both MonsterMalak and I deal with has probably done more than anyone to shed light on this breed and bring it out of the woodwork so to speak, and promote it. Yes they are fought. One of the reasons why, they are what they are, and are so healthy and athletic. The breeder we deal with does not fight dogs anymore. That is not to say puppies he has sold in to people in Turkey, aren't fighting. But he does not fight them. As for the class you mention, it was Akin Tulubas' work that finally got the Boz a separate class, this all just happened recently. And yes the dogs were shown with Kangals, even though it was obvious they were different than Kangals. MM has posted on many forums about Boz because to my knowledge he's the first guy in this country who had one and is trying to educate people about this fascinating breed. And I have mentioned them as well but not nearly as much as MM has and already I am getting flooded with requests for pups, which has really startled me, because there just isnt' that much out there on them, but when people see these dogs they are just stunned. MM's focus is family/estate/personal protection. I am looking at them as deterrents against large predators as my focus of my dog program is raising big LGDs to tackle big predators, and that is my interest in the breed.

Its like the Bucovina, a breed that interests me from Romania. I have found maybe two kennels in RO, no dogs here, although found an ad the other day advertising Great Pyr/Bucovina cross pups. Can't get a hold of them yet to find out where they got a Bucovina from. If you look it up its the same deal, hardly anything out there, maybe a few You Tubes by same person. When a dog is so rare, so rustic, so unknown outside of its own country, and the language barrier is there, and Internet searches come up with few results, that's not unusual in the beginning I think. But there are other Boz people in Turkey, and on Facebook I've friended a few. They just have minimal Internet presence so your confusion is very understandable.

 

[rockdoveranch]

I am with Carolinagal. I cannot find any information on BOZ other than what she has found. I would appear the dog has been developed in recent years by BOZ Kennels as a fighting dog.

One would think if the breed is 1000s of years old, there would be more information on the WWW and in LGD books. If not LGD books, there must be literature on them somewhere.

Monster and LGDNevada, can you provide links so we can read more? Who are the other breeders? Are they in the States, in Turkey, in Germany?

Monster, you mentioned importing BOZ from Germany. I have family in Germany and I know the country has very stick dog laws. Where is the kennel in Germany? How did you find them and what is their URL?

At - http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/archive/index.php/t-393414.html - Monster, you refer to the BOZ as the Guregh are a sub breed of Malakli and Kangal. You say the Kangal, BOZ Guregh and Malakli are easily stressed breeds, and become susceptible to illness. And go on the tell Goatress (LGDNevada) your dog went much quicker to coccidiosis, following a fight to save the other pup in same import.

The facebook page for BOZ Kennels - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boz-kennel/161718620543555?sk=wall appears to promote the dog as a fighting dog. Monster, is this the kennel where you bought your dogs from? It is not a site for children because there are multiple pictures of the bitches and sires hung together after breeding.

Monster, on - http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/210106-boz-shepherd-dogs-or-kangals/ - you talk about running across pictures and videos in Turkish with them being used for hunting wild boar and bear, They sometimes compete by pulling 10,000 pound tractors, The Boz Shepherd Dog is fought frequently in Turkey, and In turkey and Bulgaria, they hunt swine with them.

We have neighbors from east Texas who hunt feral hog. They use Catahoula Leopard dogs to track the hogs, then release Pitt Bulls to take the hogs down. While the Pitt has a lock on the hogs, they stab them to death. They recently put a bullet in the head of one of their best Pitt Bulls because he growled at one of their kids, a child the dog grew up with. There dogs are tracking and hunting dogs. They are not meant to be pets.

I totally understand both of you wanting to promote and sell your dogs, but, to me, at least, I see a big difference in dogs bred over 1000s of years to protect livestock and dogs being bred to fight, hunt and kill.

Please. Please. Give us URLs to support what you are saying here on this forum. It sounds to me that the BOZ is what we here in the States call Designer dogs. There is nothing wrong with Designer dogs, but to guard livestock, I feel there needs to be more information and university and USDA studies.

Monster, did you get my email asking about visiting you?

Thanks.

 

[carolinagirl]

yep, that's what is confusing me as well. I found a lot of Turkish sites that I had to translate thanks to Google Translator, but none mentioned Boz except for the two sources saying that they were developed by Boz Kennels. Maybe he took some unnamed primitave breed and named it, I just don't know. but it does appear that he designed this larger more powerful version of the Kangal just to have a monster sized fighting dog. I'd sure love to learn more about the breed though, and would love to research this on the web so any links you have would be appreciated.

 

[greymane]

My neighbors (who have quite the "little" farm) use a combination of animals. They had two llamas which live with the goats and sheep. They have a turkey with the chickens. They have a couple of donkeys (which are housed separately, but seem to keep many evils away by noise alone). They also have a variety of dogs. I am not sure the breed, but JJ (their largest) is a great protector.