Livestock Guardian Dogs?? Should I get one? (more pics)

[breezyfarm]

Hi I am new here and I love this site. I have been wanting to get a LGD for some time and have learned alot from this topic. I live in NC and it is difficult to find a LGD here. I have going back and forth about getting a Llama or LGD because I have a neighbor who hates dogs. I had a cattle dog and he barked alot and we went to court and had to get rid of him. We have 10 acres but our neighbor still complained. He even complained about our Guineas and we had to get rid of them too.(went to court 3 times) So I am hesitant to get a dog but we need something, we have a herd of Myotonic goats and miniature horses. I have heard that the Great Pyrenese bark alot. So any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks,

 

[dianneS]

Well my Karakachan pup did bark a lot the first night on the property and the next day, until he got used to things. LGD should never "nonsense" bark, they should really only bark when there is trouble. I brought two new little goats home last night and actually put them in the dogs pen (not with the dog of course) for everyone to get used to each other. The dog did bark last night, I don't think he liked those kids in his bed!

For the most part, the Karakachans don't bark much at all, they are very laid back, they hang back with the herd, they don't patrol the perimeter. They just lay and watch their goats and blend in with the herd waiting for any "ambush". They will run after something if they spot it in the distance, even run after hawks and leap in the air after them. They do bark when there is trouble though.

I suppose it all depends on what types of predators you're dealing with. If you don't have chickens to worry about, goats and mini horses are only susceptible to larger predators like coyotes and large dogs, maybe a baby goat could be prey to a very hungry fox. A Llama might work for you and not get you in trouble with the neighbors. A donkey would be noisy too and you could get complaints. A Llama would be helpful with your goats and horses, but it won't protect birds at all.

If you have neighbors that are that fussy, I would avoid the dogs. Go with the Llama. But I do love my LGD! He is great, but all dogs do bark (except for Basenji's and they are no guardians! ) Its a shame that you have ten acres and still have problems with neighbors. Some people just have too much time on their hands!

 

[ksalvagno]

Guard llamas should work for you. They will be quiet. But make sure you are actually getting a guard llama. Not all llamas are guards. They either have the instinct or they don't. They should be over 3 years old and have been guarding the same animal as you want them to guard.

 

[dianneS]

I've been keeping an eye on my guardian pup and the new goats to make sure everything is going okay. I had to go play shepherd for a while and make sure that my dog understands that the new boys are mine and his to protect. It seemed like he was trying to keep them separated from the girls, or perhaps the boys were just too timid to head out to the open pasture. Maybe a little of both.

But all is well now! They are all grazing together with their gaurdian dog keeping watch over them all!

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats102.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats115.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats112.jpg

No more barking out of the dog and no more bawling out of the kids!!

 

[cmjust0]

Oh, there is one concern though. The owner/breeder of these dogs told me that they need no training????

Apparently Karakachens are just bred to do their jobs and its instinctive. If they are kept with goats/sheep etc from birth, they need no training at all. She said that with her first Karakachen, she was told by the breeder to take him home and throw him in the pasture. She did, and he did great! He just got a little beat up by the goats is all.

Depends on what makes the dog tick.. We have a Sarplaninac who, unlike Pyrs and some other LGDs, needed no training nor "bonding" to do his job. He runs on "fear aggression," so anything threatening and/or out of the ordinary gets his hackles up. Anything that worries him, basically...instead of running from it like a lot of dogs would, he runs toward it and tries to make it go away. If the threat doesn't leave right away, he'll escalate his intimidation until it either decides to leave or it ends up in a fight...which he'll win, short of the threat being a bear or someone with a firearm. But if it makes the wise decision to leave, he's totally cool with that...would prefer it, I think. He's not classically "vicious," nor is he really out looking for a knock down, drag out fight is what I'm getting at.

Also unlike most of the Pyrs I've seen that are truly bonded to their charges and act like livestock, our LGD also comes a'runnin whenever he sees us enter the barnyard. If you squat down or sit out there with him, he just can't get enough of being petted and loved on. He's a dog, through and through.. Not at all shy about letting you know that his rightful place is to be the absolute center of attention.. Funny to watch a 150+lb dog wag his whole body.. He's truly a sweetheart of a dog.

..unless, of course, you're a stranger, to which he'd probably seem like the meanest and most menacing damn dog you've ever run across in your entire life.

I asked my dad once -- my dad being a "stranger" to Ivan -- what he'd take to go in there with him..

My dad snickered and said "Yeah right.. Not without a porkchop or a pistol!"

Thing is...I know a porkchop would be futile. That dog can barely eat after dark for stopping to look around and check things out, oftentimes leaving his foodbowl to go bark at something. If something really riles him up during his dinner, it's not uncommon for him to get entirely too unsettled to finish eating. Most times I have to stand with him while he finishes...I think it makes him feel better to know that someone's watching out while he's got his head down in a bowl.

Thing is, I know that's not because he knows his purpose...he's just naturally nervous. In a nutshell, he's a big gigantic fraidy cat that's bred to fight instead of run. That's all.

ZERO prey drive, too. There's not a doubt in my mind that he'd starve to death if we didn't feed him, even though he's overrun with goats and chickens. They're not food to him.. Food is that stuff in the bowl that we bring, or possibly a stray chicken egg or some spilled goat grain ( :/ ). In his eyes, though, food simply doesn't live and breathe and move around.

Personally, after having had Ivan, I wouldn't have livestock without a good LGD.. He's absolutely phenominal and I love him dearly.

All that said, I know a guy who has to keep a Pyr tied because it keeps trying to kill ONE of his goats.. Just the one. All the others are fine, but she's got a vendetta against this one particular goat.

Personally...and this is just me, but...personally, I think that's got A LOT to do with how cheap and indescriminantly bred Pyrs in this area are these days. I wouldn't own a Pyr, frankly.. But, again, just personal opinion..

 

[cmjust0]

He barked for a little while, which I tried to discourage (nonsense barking is a no-no!) but he doesn't know the meaning of the word "NO!" just yet.

LGD should never "nonsense" bark, they should really only bark when there is trouble.

If a dog's worth a rat's patoot as a LGD, he'll never really know the meaning of much of anything master says...

That's my opinion, of course, but do keep in mind that these dogs are bred to think and act independently. If the owner breaks the dog of independent thinking and action early on and causes him to look to his owner for guidance, he'll be worthless as a LGD. Afterall, his job is to protect the goats when the owner is NOT around, so if he doesn't feel right acting in master's absence.....well, that's definitely not a good situation.

Also, a bit of "nonsense" barking is par for the course with LGDs.. Most -- as yours seems to have done -- will get themselves acclimated to what sounds are normal and what sounds aren't.. Coyotes yipping and howling, for instance, drove our dog NUTS for a while, but just the other night a coyote howled so close that it made the hair on MY arms stand up....Ivan just looked up, scanned around a bit, then flopped back over. Not a peep, as coyotes yipping are a fairly normal sound to him at this point, and haven't thus far been accompanied by anything harrowing. So, to him, no biggie.

Remember, too, that they can hear things you can't hear.. If he's barking at what seems to you to be "nothing," be careful about chastising him right off the bat.. You just never know what he's aware of that you're not!

There are times, even now, when he'll go on barking sprees and bark all..fricken..night..long at who knows what. I wouldn't dare step outside and tell him to hush, though, as I know I'm a rank amateur compared to him when it comes to being aware of what's going on..

Plus...he wouldn't listen to me anyway.

Your dog is super cute, btw..

Here's my favorite pic of our Ivan, aka "Big Eye."

 

[dianneS]

cmjust0, I have found pretty much the same to be true with my new Karakachan pup. He's doing a great job without any training, and I never in a million years thought I would trust him or be so impressed with his "work" quite so soon! It is still early though and I've only had him a few weeks, but I can already sleep better at night just knowing he is out there.

I've been told too that Pyrs are being overbred as well, that's why I went with the Karakachan. But I'm sure that many, many Pyrs are wonderful guardians. I've never heard of the Sarplaninac? I'll have to look that one up.

I got some great photos of my guardian with our brand new wethers who just got here last night and have never been around a dog before. I can't believe how easily everyone is making the transition and how relaxed they all are!

These are some of the cutest pictures I've ever seen!

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats128.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats125.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats129.jpg

 

[cmjust0]

If yours is like mine, you'll see a lot of his side like that. Ivan lays around until something causes him to get up, and when it's over...he lays back down.

Until it gets cold..

Wait till it gets nice and cold out.. Hehehehe.. Your guy looks to have a nice winter coat coming on already, so when it's fricken just FREEZING COLD outside, he's liable to just come alive and go berzerk on you.

Not berzerk as in killing things, mind you...just wanting to play and run and romp and have himself a big ol' time. Ivan never wants me to play with him more than when my fingers are about to break off from the cold.. I've seen that dog sleep in the field during a freezing drizzle more times than I can count...you go in the barnyard and he jumps up and comes running at you to play with little ice pellets hanging off his coat like LET'S DO THIS!

 

[dianneS]

Oh boy, I'll be looking forward to that.

I have noticed that, like you said before, he doesn't seem to know the meaning of anything that I say. I don't think he really cares what I have to say either!

He does know to wait nicely for his food, but that's about all we've mastered! He doesn't jump up on me as much, I was told he'd just outgrow that behavior. Over all, he's just a really good boy and does like attention, but gets right back to business when its all over.

 

[cmjust0]

Oh boy, I'll be looking forward to that.

hehehee..

I have noticed that, like you said before, he doesn't seem to know the meaning of anything that I say. I don't think he really cares what I have to say either!

Good! That means he's confident and is inclined to think for himself. Excellent qualities to have in a LGD.

I think what you'll find is that even though they may not listen per se, they're extremely sensitive animals who can instinctively approximate how you're feeling at any given moment. As he progresses, you may find that you only have to look at him funny to prompt a response..

For instance, when we express aggravation with Ivan, he goes into this weird super-slow-mo and almost freezes...you can see in his eyes that he's thinking ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrap...until the awkwardness passes, at which point he tries so hard to get back in your good graces. He does that because he literally does not know to run away when he gets scared -- it's not a part of his DNA -- yet he wouldn't dream of getting aggressive with us...so he just locks up. It's bizarre when you first see it, but once you come to understand it, it makes absolute perfect sense.

It's also especially NOT handy when you get aggravated at him because he's standing in your way when you're carrying something heavy.. You'll be like "Move!" and he...just.....freezes........solid.



Also.. :/ ..be prepared for people poking fun at you for your dog not listening to a word you say...they'll think he's dumb because most people equate obedience with intelligence and disobedience with stupidity.

Which sucks.

He does know to wait nicely for his food, but that's about all we've mastered!

That's a biggie, though. The pack leader tells the other dogs when and what they may and may not eat. If he's sitting and waiting nicely for food, he's accepted you as the alpha.

Me and mine had to work on that a bit since he was already in the 80-100lb range at about 7mo when we got him...and I was a stranger. He didn't like me AT ALL, so I had to teach him that he couldn't run me off.. Though he could easily have injured me pretty badly, he wasn't yet confident enough to actually launch an attack...so he eventually submitted. Thankfully. It took a while, but today, I can pet him while he eats and he'll wag his tail as he crunches kibble..

He doesn't jump up on me as much, I was told he'd just outgrow that behavior.

Ivan's hilarious about that. He's not once jumped up on either of us, but he still has the urge to sorta half-jump sometimes...which comes off as a bounce..

For a dog that big to bounce like a puppy...cutest thing in.the.world.

Over all, he's just a really good boy and does like attention, but gets right back to business when its all over.

Based on how you've described him so far, I think your new LGD is going to be absolutely phenominal. Sounds to me like he's got just what it takes.