Loose mineral..."if it's red, it's dead."

[Griffin's Ark]

I have decided to take the big copper step. I am going to get some Copasure and some gel caps and start making my own bolus' for the goats (and sheep). It is kind of expensive for the single application of killing Barber pole worms, but in the long run I think it will pay off.

Chris

 

[cmjust0]

I have decided to take the big copper step. I am going to get some Copasure and some gel caps and start making my own bolus' for the goats (and sheep). It is kind of expensive for the single application of killing Barber pole worms, but in the long run I think it will pay off.

Chris

It's not as big a step as you'd think, actually.. I was kinda nervous about putting that much copper in a goat until I did more reading about copper oxide's near-zero bioavailability.. That much copper sulfate would almost certainly kill one dead, but with copper oxide, very little of it gets to the goat at any given time.. That's a good thing...builds in a good margin for error.

Case in point...I personally know some folks who cram an entire 12.5g calf bolus into every goat in their herd, once a year... If the kids are big enough to physically handle the bolus (50lb+, maybe?), they get a whole bolus.

Sounds nuts, I know, but I also know it to be a fact.. They've been doing it for years, and had never split a capsule to dose it out...I know that for a fact, too, because they thought the COWP 'needles' were the length of the giant calf bolus.. Not so.. They were quite surprised to learn that they were, in fact, tiny little short "needles"..

If you read up on some of the studies, it apparently doesn't make much difference in terms of egg-counts whether you give a few grams or 10 grams... When I bolused ours this past Sunday, everybody got 4.5g regardless of weight (everybody's 100+, if just barely) in a 000-sized gelcap.. Reason being, 4.5g is the supposed dosage for 100lbs, and it also happens to fill a 000 gelcap solid.

That was good enough for me. Your mileage may vary.


Also.....if I could make one suggestion to help make your life a little easier...

Get yourself one of these ..

Yeah, it's $20 vs. the $2 you'd pay for a plastic calf balling gun, but the plastic ones won't hold a goat-sized bolus worth a damn.. Plus, even if you manage to get the bolus and the plastic gun crammed down the goat's neck far enough to prevent it from spitting/chewing the med, she's liable to bite down and crack the gun in half...then where are ya? You're left trying to fish a broken plastic balling gun out of a goat's throat, jagged end first..

Not fun.

I actually own the model I linked to and it's FRICKEN AWESOME. You drop the pill way down into the flexible (rubber/plastic/polyethylene? ) tube, cram that baby WAY back in there (without the worry of scraping their throat/palate), and if they bite down...oh well. It's metal.

They WILL take their pills with this balling gun.. It's priceless, so far as I'm concerned.. And from the looks of it, I'm fairly certain it's the last one I'll ever have to buy.

Valley Vet carries Copasure, too...it's $3.50 higher than Jeffers, but if you combine the balling gun with the Copasure, freight's free and you're in way high cotton for just about $60..

Anyhow....just a suggestion.

 

[broke down ranch]

Ok, I hope this hasn't been asked and I just missed it somewhere. I use Raglands Goat Builder 20% in the loose mineral form in their grain every day plus I have the same block available at all times. The copper in this is copper sulfate. Now, the iron is ferrous sulfate AND iron oxide. It is red-tinged brown. Do ya'll think this is OK? I mean, I'm assuming the iron oxide is for the coloring of the product. But it is more brown than red so....

 

[cmjust0]

Ok, I hope this hasn't been asked and I just missed it somewhere. I use Raglands Goat Builder 20% in the loose mineral form in their grain every day plus I have the same block available at all times. The copper in this is copper sulfate. Now, the iron is ferrous sulfate AND iron oxide. It is red-tinged brown. Do ya'll think this is OK? I mean, I'm assuming the iron oxide is for the coloring of the product. But it is more brown than red so....

ETA: I just realized that this may be more like the loose form of a protein tub, and I'm not familiar enough with protein tubs to know whether or not they can effectively double as mineral..

 

[broke down ranch]

I stopped by the feed store just a bit ago to see what all it has and the breakdown of each as far as %'s and ppm. And I think we're OK. This is what's in them (the loose mineral and the block have the same ingredients, just different forms):

Crude Protein: 20%
Crude Fat (min): 2%
Crude Fiber (max): 7%
Calcium (min): 2%
Calcium (max): 3%
Phosporus (min):1%
Salt (min): 17%
Salt (max): 20%
Potassium (min): 1%
Magnesium (min): .75%
Cobalt (min): 25 ppm
Copper (min): 65 ppm
Iodine (min): 50 ppm
Iron (Fe) (min): 1000 ppm
Manganese (min): 850 ppm
Selenium (min): 5 ppm
Zinc (min): 850 ppm
Vit A (min): 50,000 units per lb
Vit D3 (min): 10,000 units per lb
Vit E (min): 100 units per lb


Oh, forgot to add that the iron oxide is the next to last ingredient.

 

[cmjust0]

Those numbers are low...more like feed numbers than mineral numbers. You'd expect to see something north of 750ppm for copper in a good goat mineral, for instance.. I've seen goat mineral as high as 1850ppm copper, in fact.. Never will you see a crude protein content in a true mineral mix, either..

I'm not saying it's bad...I'm saying it almost looks like a feed/mineral hybrid, which could very well be what a protein tub is supposed to be. That said, 65ppm copper might be just about right if they're consuming 10-15x the amount of it that they would be of a straight-up mineral.. If a goat consumed 10x the amount of a mineral in a day than the mineral makers expected it would, that could be really bad too..

If you set this out free choice, does it disappear pretty quickly? I'm guessing it's sweet, to encourage them to eat it...unlike mineral, which should be salty to sorta naturally limit the amount of it they'll take at any given time.

All in all, .. I'm just speculating here...again, no personal experience with grainerals...or mineroteins...or whatever you'd call it.

 

[broke down ranch]

No, they don't like it very much. Sometimes I see them licking the block but not very often. On the block it says the salt is supposed to help discourage them eating too much....? I dunno....lol

 

[cmjust0]

Picked up a new mineral the other day.. It's a custom blend designed jointly by two goat specialists at two universities here, formulated specifically for dry or early-bred does on pasture and consuming baled forages from this area, and which also get very little -- if any -- grain..

That's pretty much a description of our primary herd at this point, save for the wether who runs with them.

Frankly, I'd like to see a few of the numbers a little higher (specifically copper, zinc, selenium, & Vit. E) but all the ingredients are highly bioavailable...like, not only copper sulfate, but copper chelate, etc...

And it's brown.

What's even neater is that you can actually see the little flecks of this and that...blue copper sulfate...clear salt crystals...pretty cool indeed. Oh, and for some reason, it smells just like Kent brand show goat feed.



When I dumped the old red sandy crap out of the mineral feeder and replaced it with this, fights broke out. No kidding. They were pushing and shoving and ramming each other, wedging their heads in the bucket trying to get at the mineral.. Keep in mind that there are only nine goats in this particular pasture, but they drank about *4 gallons* of water immediately afterward.

I may have a chat with the guys who came up with the blend and see if it would be good/bad to mess around with it a little bit...more copper, more zinc, more selenium and E, a little less magnesium (to make it more wether-safe), etc..

For now, though, I'm VERY pleased with the way this mineral looks and smells and the way the goats are using it. Too early to tell if it'll do them much good, of course, but...so far, so good.

 

[freemotion]

So, are you gonna tell us how to get it???

 

[CathyK]

I have used Mary's mineral mix-I have dairy goats. Long article but worth the read. This was posted on Shady Land Dairy goat page. (http://www.sandylanedairygoats.com/goatminerals.htm)

Here is info on the goat minerals we feed, if you would like Mary's contact info, email me at goathappy@gmail.com We are dealers, but it is cheaper to buy the minerals strait from Mary. This is a long article, but well worth the read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMAXI-MIN CAPRINE MINERAL

FOR GOAT OWNERS WHO DEMAND THE BEST.

AT LAST, THERE IS A MINERAL SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUR HARD-WORKING DAIRY GOATS. ( YES, IT WILL WORK GREAT FOR MEAT GOATS , TOO. AFTER ALL, THOSE DOES NEED THE BEST NUTRITION PROVIDING FOR THEIR FAST- GROWINGKIDS!)

MARY KELLOGG HAS 35 YEARS OF DAIRY GOAT KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. NOW,WITH THE EXPERT ASSISTANCE OF DR. STEVE HART OF LANGSTON UNIVERSITY , A MINERAL HAS BEEN FORMULATED TO PROVIDE OPTIMAL NUTRITIONAL SUPPORT. MARY KELLOGG AND THE MINRULAX COMPANY DEVELOPED THE VERY FIRST MINERAL (that we are aware of) MADE SPECIALLY FOR DAIRY GOATS IN THE US OVER 30 YEARS AGO!

IF YOU ARE FEEDING A MULTI-SPECIES MINERAL, YOUR GOATS ARE BEINGROBBED OF SOME VERY IMPORTANT MINERALS. IF YOUR GOATS ARE BEING ROBBEDNUTRITIONALLY, SO ARE YOU ! NONE OF THE MINERALS I FOUND ON THE MARKET ADDRESS THE ADDITIONAL COBALT NEEDS OF THE DAIRY GOAT, ESPECIALLY TOGGENBURGS AND LA MANCHAS.

MOST MIXES ON THE MARKET ARE DEFICIENT IN MANY ESSENTIAL MINERALS. SOFAR, I HAVE FOUND NONE WHICH CONTAIN OPTIMAL LEVELS OF VIT. A,D, E , THE B COMPLEX, AND COBALT. ALL OF THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE SYNERGISTIC----IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERYTHING IS BALANCED.

ALSO , THE CALCIUM PHOSPHORUS RATIOS ARE WRONG. THE IDEAL IS 1.2:1, not 2:1. WHY ARE THEY ALL USING THE 2: 1 RATIO? BECAUSE PHOSPHORUS IS EXPENSIVE, THAT'S WHY! NOT because that is the correct ratio.

This mineral is made with the BEST ingredients we currently haveavailable, NOT the cheapest! It is not perfect, because there is just too much that is still unknown, but we are working on it, with the assistance of our "girls" and the other breeders who are generously providing feed-back!

ONE MINERAL CANNOT POSSIBLY PROVIDE ADEQUATE MINERAL LEVELS FOR SEVERAL SPECIES OF ANIMAL ! JUST THINK ABOUT IT, AND DO SOME RESEARCH.

Without cobalt, Vitamins C, K , and the Bs cannot be synthesized.Without adequate cobalt, copper cannot be utilized. (This is why many have found that the copper boluses did not work well, or at all! ) This are justa FEW of the relationships that are integral to how the body works. (Yep, ours too!) Our best source of cobalt is MILK! The girls cannot give it to us if they are not getting it!

When doing research, I found a definite link confirmed in studies between copper deficiency and aneurysms. This probably explains why I lost a 2year old and a 4 year old last spring to aneurysms. One friend lost 2 bucks during breeding season ,and another friend lost a yearling doe. These animals all appeared to be in good shape physically, but all were showing signs of copper deficiency. (Bald spot on tails, "rusty" black, white hairs in Toggs, etc.)

PLEASE do NOT give this mineral to animals that have had copperboluses for at least 4 months after administering the bolus. We do not know if itwould be safe, or create toxic levels of copper.

PLEASE LET US KNOW ABOUT CONSUMPTION RATES AND PALATABILITY. THIS IS A "WORK IN PROGRESS" AND WE MAY ADJUST THE FORMULA SOMEWHAT AS TIMEPASSES.

IF YOUR GOATS "DEVOUR" THE MINERAL WHEN YOU BEGIN TO FEED IT, THEN YOU KNOW THAT THEY WERE CERTAINLY VERY DEFICIENT IN ESSENTIALS! (Mother Natureseems to have equipped her creatures within an innate knowledge of what theyneed for health.) If they do this, we suggest adding one part of fine, NON-IODIZED salt to 4 or 5 parts mineral for the first month or so. Salt can easily be found at a feed store. Some goats have been verysuspicious of this "new" feed for a while, others have no hesitation. If they are hesitant, I have found that "eating" the mineral myself, with appropriate chomping and lip-smacking noises, often works!

WE ARE CONTINUING TO RESEARCH THE BEST BIOAVAILABLE FORMS OF MINERALS AND VITAMINS. THERE WILL ALSO BE HERBALS AND CHELATES IN A PLUS FORMULA WEARE WORKING ON FOR THE FUTURE TO ENHANCE YOUR GOATS HEALTH---AND YOURS!This is as natural as we can make it. We cannot use organic oils like coconut or soy, due to rancidity problems and possible changes in consumptionrates. If no oil was used , there would be a serious problem with the dispersionrates of the heavier and lighter minerals , which would settle out, or rise, during transport. there would also be dust, which could cause lungproblems. Changes in dispersion could cause very serious problems with the minerals like cobalt, selenium, and copper toxicity.

THERE WILL BE NO SALT OR FILLER ADDED TO OUR MINERAL. IF YOU NEED TO (OR CHOOSE TO) ADD SALT TO LIMIT CONSUMPTION IN SELF-FEEDERS, YOU CAN DO THAT VERY CHEAPLY BY ADDING IT YOURSELF! SALT LEVELS IN 3 OF THE MOST POPULAR MINERALS ARE FROM 18.2% - 45% (RESEARCH IT YOURSELFON-LINE).-----SHIPPED TO YOU AS PART OF YOUR MINERAL. If you figure out the actual cost of the other minerals without the salt, you will be shocked. (I certainlywas !)

YOU WILL GET MORE FOR YOUR MONEY WITH OUR MINERAL. (Bear in mind that the salt level affects the amount of mineral your goat isgetting---400 ppm of something contained within mineral that is 45% salt means your animal gets just over HALF that amount! (If of course, they are willing to eat that much salt! Most goats are smart enough not to eat that muchsalt. How would you like a tablespoon of salt with your vitamin pill?)

I BOUGHT ONE "MINERAL" SUPPLEMENT THAT WAS MORE THAN 75% FILLER!---SALT, SOYBEAN MEAL, AND WHEAT HULLS MEANT THAT THE DOES HAD TO EAT AT LEAST6-8 OZ. PER DAY TO GET EVEN A PART OF THE REQUIRED MINERALS! At $ 27.00 per bag, I was paying $20.25 for less than 13 lb. of actual mineral! That means that 50 lb. of mineral cost more than $81.00 ! What made it worse isthat copper levels were totally inadequate, as were several other essentials, like cobalt!

YOU NEED TO REALLY READ THE LABEL! If you cannot figure out what it all means , ask your local animal extension specialist or a nutritionist for help. Just be cautious, as some will use cow or sheep requirements--and often , the chart they use is over 30 years old! I suggest looking at the research papers Langston University has done--under the Kika de GarzaGoat Institute online.

SALT COSTS JUST OVER $3.00 FOR 50 LBS. . Wouldn't you rather just add it yourself? We feed both the salt and mineral free choice , so the does can eat what they need. DO NOT USE IODIZED SALT---TOO MUCH IODINE WILLTIE UP ESSENTIALS!

MANGANESE DEFICIENCY IS A RECENTLY DISCOVERED SERIOUS PROBLEM IN PARTS OF OKLAHOMA ,(and I suspect in many other places as well!). DEFICIENCY CAUSES LOWER CONCEPTION RATES, LOWER MILK PRODUCTION, PROBLEMS WITH WEIGHT MAINTENANCE, POST- KIDDING INFECTIONS, DEFORMATION OF FRONT LEGS AND/OR JOINTS IN NEWBORNS, NEURO-CEREBRAL CONNECTION DEFICIENCIES, AND A HOST OF OTHER PROBLEMS. THIS MINERAL ESPECIALLY ADDRESSES THAT PROBLEM.

WE ANTICIPATE THAT CONSUMPTION WILL BE ABOUT 1-1/2 OZ PER ANIMAL PER DAY---THIS IS AN AVERAGE FIGURED FOR 135 POUNDS. SMALL MILKING DOES ARE EXPECTED TO CONSUME ABOUT 1-1/2 OZ. PER DAY, AND KIDS 1/4-1/2 OZ PERDAY.. Of course , this depends upon size, milk production, and feedingpractices. 1-1/2 oz. is about 2 Tablespoons. The cost per doe is in the 6 cents to 14 cents per day range, depending upon where you live, and the shipping charges. A pound of mineral will provide for a small doe for about 10days.

This mineral contains the finest grade of yeast.. This provides optimum levels of those all-important B-complex vitamins that are so importantfor health. It is designed for goats on alfalfa hay and pasture; or alfalfa, pasture, and prairie hay. If you are feeding straight alfalfa (which is NOT good for your goats, as they need the long fibers of grass hay), you may need to offer a hi-phos dairy mineral to be certain they can balancetheir intakes properly. I also keep a mol-mag block ( bloat block or grass tetany block, depending upon where you live) out for the does, as they need more magnesium (wish I knew why!) in the winter. I learned this from afriend of David McKenzie years ago. I called England, as I knew they needed something that was not being provided. I could not figure out why mygoats DEVOURED certain plants and barks at certain times of the year. (You can learn a lot by reading the plant analyses in the back of Goat Husbandry ! ) I learned that magnesium was what they needed, usually starting inOctober! Magnesium deficiency often causes "bowed" front legs. I have seen thismany times in foals, and in yearling goats that are pregnant

Current mineral levels:
Calcium 10%
Phosphorus 8%
Potassium 2%
Magnesium 1%
Sulfur 2%
Iron 2000 ppm
Manganese 5000 ppm
Zinc 8000 ppm
Copper 1250 ppm
Selenium 25 ppm
Cobalt 200 ppm
Iodine 100 ppm
Vit. A 250,000 IU
Vit. D 50,000 IU
Vit. E 400 IU
These calculations were made based on 5-1/2 lb. dry matter consumption for does, consisting of alfalfa and grass hay, and one pound of grain. Therefore , consumption may vary. Most goats need more in the beginning, and then level off in consumption. It is normal if the consumption goes up anddown! Again, I wish I knew why!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FOR EVERY BAG OF MINERAL SOLD, A DONATION WILL BE MADE FOR GOAT MINERAL RESEARCH AT LANGSTON UNIVERSITY . HELP US HELP YOUR GOATS!