Nutrition and condition discussion

[TheMixedBag]

Manna-Pro's got a different listing for EVERYTHING...horses, cattle, goats,, swine, and rabbits. Wasn't sure if there was even a real difference or not.

http://www.mannapro.com/products/calf-manna/goats/

 

[freemotion]

Yes, I believe you are correct in that you got your conditioning advice from someone who is excusing underconditioned does. You CAN do this! I hope my story gives you some encouragement that it doesn't have to break the bank account:

I have two Alpines, my only goats that are not crosses. They are both hard to keep in condition. But if there is no muscling along the spine, that is clear indication that they are metabolizing their own tissues, which is rather dangerous and will do damage to the major organ systems. It puts the animal....any species....at great risk from even the slightest glitch, bacterial or viral or in the case of goats, tummy upset.

I got the first Alpine as a pregnant rescue and did get her condition up quite nicely....she was about 2.5 months away from her due date, which I didn't know at the time, when I got her. She was thin with a rough, thin coat at the end of December in New England. I got her back into great condition without rumen issues by feeding her root veggies, pumpkins, squashes, any produce I could get my hands on for free, chopped fine, along with alfalfa pellets (couldn't find the hay that late in the season here) and beet pulp....and slightly sprouted barley for easily-digested protein. She was in very good condition by the time she delivered a single buckling and continued to improve in condition even though she gave me more than a gallon a day of milk by the end of the first month. She never got more than a pound of grain twice a day. I pushed her food until she got slightly clumpy poo, then backed off. Then after a week or two, I'd push it a bit further. She was being fed coarse grass hay from a communal round bale (with chickens pooping on it and goats jumping all over it) and white bread (all over the poopy ground) and NO WATER anywhere to be seen when I picked her up. It is a wonder she survived. She had green frosting on her face from a cake the people had given her. They were feeding leftovers from a homeless shelter. :/

Once things started to grow, I did as I stated above....she grazed all she wanted in my grass pasture and I hung bundles of branches once or twice a day for her to eat in a stall without competition from the other goats. Yes, it was a lot of work for me, cutting brush and chopping veggies, rinsing grains and soaking beet pulp, but I had a sturdy doe and maintained her on a budget and without danger of acidosis.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Yes, I believe you are correct in that you got your conditioning advice from someone who is excusing underconditioned does.

I would agree.

... if there is no muscling along the spine, that is clear indication that they are metabolizing their own tissues, which is rather dangerous and will do damage to the major organ systems. It puts the animal....any species....at great risk from even the slightest glitch, bacterial or viral or in the case of goats, tummy upset.

Once things started to grow, I did as I stated above....she grazed all she wanted in my grass pasture and I hung bundles of branches once or twice a day for her to eat in a stall without competition from the other goats. Yes, it was a lot of work for me, cutting brush and chopping veggies, rinsing grains and soaking beet pulp, but I had a sturdy doe and maintained her on a budget and without danger of acidosis.

I noticed a big difference in ease of conditioning in the summer when there was plenty of fresh browse available. I definitely believe there is something to that.

 

[TheMixedBag]

I'd agree with you on it if her does were in bad condition, but they're not. They're in better condition than my doe, only because they're little pigs who sneak into the alfalfa every chance they get.

 

[freemotion]

Does she have a website with current pics?

I guess maybe I'm not as concerned about it because even her breeder isn't. She said she's a little underconditioned, but not anything that's particularly dangerous.

Then again, she's where I got my opinions about dairy goats and conditioning, so there you go.

Four people here disagree with your breeder, respectfully. We are concerned about your doe, that's all. This comment of yours seemed to indicate to me that you were questioning her wisdom concerning this. This is where the internet gets tricky, did I misunderstand? There is no tone of voice or facial expressions when we type into a little box. Please know that we are concerned, not criticizing.

Maybe you can feed her more alfalfa, since that is what the breeder's does that are in good condition keep getting into? I've found that alfalfa makes a huge difference, but it is very hard for me to find around here and feeding pellets, more than just a supplement, would be far too expensive. Hence my creativity in finding something that is very healthy and really works well.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Maybe you can feed her more alfalfa, since that is what the breeder's does that are in good condition keep getting into? I've found that alfalfa makes a huge difference, but it is very hard for me to find around here and feeding pellets, more than just a supplement, would be far too expensive.

I really think that alfalfa is critical.

 

[helmstead]

All due respect, because you ARE trying to do something for the doe...

That breeder's cheese has slipped off her cracker.

The doe is emaciated. She's a BCS of 1. Her body is eating muscle to function, which will lead to major organ damage eventually.

You will not be able to get acceptable condition on her until you dry her off. It will all go into her milk production, especially being a high production doe.

When it's warm enough, I'll be shaving my does in milk for the shows. They are in 'dairy condition'. I'll post comparison photos. BREED has nothing to do with it, mine are dairy does, too, and high production ones for their size. Apart from size, the standard is pretty darn similar. I can even post my Nubians shaved, if you want to see them lactating.

I don't mean to scare you or be cruel, but the doe we just had to euthanize due to emaciation (from a medical condition) looked about like this. The stress of labor was too much for her. Goats in that condition, if the wind blows funny, they're done.

I do understand not wanting to loose a lactation, not wanting to buy milk, etc...but in the long scheme of things you're loosing this particular doe's future.

I am just trying to convey the serious nature of her weight. I've been there - I've had does that were emaciated when I got them, pregnant, etc etc. Once you take the time to dry them off, give them plenty of time and food afterwards and get them in good condition - it WILL HOLD and you'll reap the rewards.

About Calf Manna, ADM makes a product that is a great substitute and is considerably cheaper, if you can get it. Let me know if your feed store carries ADM and I'll send you the product number.

 

[TheMixedBag]

She's on all the alfalfa she can eat. I threw the last bale out there today, I'll be getting better quality Thursday. She's been on alfalfa pellets, too.

Now, if my nubian doe produces enough, I'll more than happily dry her off. She should still be lactating by May, I doubt her kids are going to be weaned that soon, and if she is, I can put her on the one-day milk test and this won't be a wasted year. I do want to reiterate though, she WAS in good condition when she was bred, and she stayed in good condition until about the 3rd month. I will also say, despite her looking emaciated, she does have fat on her, mostly the lower ribs and brisket area, and a bit behind the front legs, and despite her being thin, she's in great health otherwise, even though she had a pretty good wormload up until last week, when I finished her schedule. Even the feed change hasn't phased her, and neither did labor, and she was thinner then. I can hit her with Ivomec Plus and see what that does, and I can increase her feed, but I'd really like to know how much I should be feeding her. She's getting 2 scoops of grain (which she really doesn't like...), 2 scoops of dry beet pulp, canola oil and mineral. The scoops are the 4-quart horse scoops, and it's usually gone by the end of the day.

Also-no, they don't have recent photos (2010), but I will defend her, sorry. She's been raising goats and horses for a heck of a lot longer than I have, and nobody's in bad condition.
Finally, can anybody actually see the picture of Zelda? It's Jenny, and I wanted to know what picture she was using.
http://horseofcorff.com/goats.htm

 

[freemotion]

Again, I will respectfully disagree. I feel I need to say it a bit more strongly. The doe is in frightening condition. There is no fat on her....otherwise, she would not be metabolizing muscle. There is essentially no muscling on her topline.

I was in the horse industry full-time for decades and many people think you can look at the belly to see if a horse is fat or thin. No. You need to look at the topline. Remember those commercials of starving children in Africa? Remember the emaciated faces and arms and the HUGE bellies? If the topline shows the outline of each vertebra, and you can clearly see each transverse process and even the bodies of the vertebrae....yikes. Yes, you will see the tips of the spinous processes on a doe in decent condition in some of the dairy gals. But not the other parts of the bones.

If she is getting that much food, there is something else going on. What is her FAMACHA score?

 

[TheMixedBag]

Fine. Nice and pink. Like I said, though, she's milking enough now (1 week into lactation) to feed 3 kids with a little bit left over for us, and her kids look like they've doubled in size....

Also...wrong size (I think) on the scoop. It's basically this thing, just square.
http://www.jeffersequine.com/product.asp?camid=EQU, EQU&pn=IA-SL&cn=25592