Nutrition and condition discussion

[freemotion]

I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC. Plus free-choice grass hay.

Wow, really? Have I been overly cautious? Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly. I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it. He is so thin. He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.

 

[20kidsonhill]

I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC. Plus free-choice grass hay.

Wow, really? Have I been overly cautious? Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly. I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it. He is so thin. He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.

I am not saying I am a show person, but show people aren't keeping those bucks that plump by not feeding them grain. Even my mature bucks get grained in the winter for 2 or 3 months, I am not saying I have never heard of a buck getting Urinary Calculi(UC), but I think it is mostly a whether problem, Or feeding an improperly mixed feed with no AC in it.

Here is some information on CA to P ratios in hay.


http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_ratio.html


Here is some nutritional facts about ca to P

" Phosphorous (P) - is also important on a daily basis. It must be fed in the correct proportion to Ca in your goats feed. The ratio of Ca to P should never drop below 1.2 : 1 and vitamin D must also be available. Calcium and P are very important for lactating does and growing kids. They require a Ca ratio of @ 2:1 (two times as much Ca as P). Too much P compared to Ca can lead to urinary calculi in wethers. Pregnant does should not be fed a Ca ratio that is very high in Ca as this can predispose them to a metabolic disease called milk fever. In contrast, a doe needs a high Ca to P ratio once she is milking. This is because she is excreting lots of Ca every day in her milk. Most grains are high in P and low in Ca."

this is from the website:
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meatgoats/meatgoatfs15.htm

 

[20kidsonhill]

I seperated this from the other post so it wouldn't get to lengthy,

I am a big beleiver in Ca to P ratio in your herd management. I am also lazy, so I prefer to feed a good co-op mixed goat feed with AC in it rather than to deal with figuring out my own grains, but it can be done.

Here is some ca to P information I pulled off of a horse website:

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

"""So now that we're all properly impressed with the importance of a calcium-phosphorus ratio, how do you calculate one? Below are the calcium and phosphorus values for some commonly fed forages and grains:

Feed Calcium (%) Phosphorus (%)
Alfalfa hay, midbloom 1.24 0.22
Bermuda hay, 29-42 days 0.30 0.19
Oat hay 0.29 0.23
Orchardgrass hay, early bloom 0.24 0.30
Timothy hay, midbloom 0.43 0.20
Barley grain 0.05 0.34
Beet pulp, dehydrated 0.62 0.09
Corn grain 0.05 0.27
Oat grain 0.05 0.34
Rice bran 0.09 1.57
Wheat bran 0.13 1.13


Keep in mind these are average values and may vary somewhat from region to region.

To calculate a calcium-phosphorus ratio:

1) Convert the number of pounds of each feed to kilograms by dividing pounds by 2.2. For example, let's say you want to know the ratio for a diet comprised of 15.4 pounds of bermuda and 4.4 pounds of oats. 15.4 divided by 2.2 = 7; 4.4 divided by 2.2 = 2.

2) Multiply these numbers by both the calcium and phosphorus ..............go to the above link for the rest of the information, I didn't want the post to get to long."""

 

[20kidsonhill]

I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC. Plus free-choice grass hay.

Wow, really? Have I been overly cautious? Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly. I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it. He is so thin. He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.

Sorry I got so lengthy on this I was trying to get to a point, notice on the chart that it says Oat grain is a ratio of .05 to .34 and the desired ratio of a non-lactating goat is 1.2 to 1 ca to P ratio, and the statement that Urinary Calculi is caused by too high a phosphorus ratio. In my opinion I would not feed them just the oats, even if you added the AC. The grain I am feeding(pelleted goat 16% protein) is nurtritionally formulated with a 2 :1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus.

If you were to try and balance the oats with a hay that is higher calcium to phosphorus perhaps it would all balance out. I am not a nutritionist and it is all complicated to me. Hence the reason why I just buy the pelleted goat feed and feed a mixed grass hay.

 

[mossyStone]

This as been my first yr to own a buck, this thread has help me alot, in trying to find a balance to keep him looking fit. I dont show but i dont want bones either... I will be looking into AC and a pelleted ration for him...

 

[freemotion]

It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.

 

[20kidsonhill]

It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.

yes, I agree it could work, just need to sit and do the math and figure out how many parts of alfalfa to how many parts of sprouted oats to balance out the ration and take into account the type of hay you are feeding. Then add a liitle AC to the sprouted outs to help even further with the UC. Any other grains you are adding would also have to be looked at in the equation.

You may also wish to look into the difference of Ca and P values in sprouted oats compared to non-sprouted.

 

[Our7Wonders]

It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.

Wow! This sounds complicated! Is there much info out there on ratios for sprouted grains? I don't sprout but am currently soaking oats and barley and have new little guys that I'll need to get this figured out for. Freemotion, if you find out any info on this will you please post it or PM me with it? I'll see what I can figure out as well.

Thanks!

 

[freemotion]

There isn't much out there that I've found in past searches....I suspect that minerals are minerals and won't increase/decrease. It is the protein and vitamin levels that I was originally attracted to, and the probiotics....also phytate neutralizing.

However, when phytates are neutralized, mineral absorption is not blocked....hmmm....

I still think sprouting the grains dramatically changes the way the body utilizes them. They become closer to "plants" and further from grains/starches.

A high-carb diet in humans will cause and exacerbate gout, which is a build-up of uric acid crystals in the tissues. I often wonder if UC is similar, since it seems to be tied into grain feeding.

 

[TheMixedBag]

Just an update on my skinny doe, and asking for more help.

Since she kidded, I've switched to a dairy ration (Busch Goat Feathercreek Dairy Ration), about 3 scoops (plus what she eats on the stand), one scoop of beet pulp, and about a flake or two of alfalfa hay, or whatever she eats in a day from that. What should I increase/decrease?

I am milking her in the morning, not pulling kids, and she's giving just under or at a quart a day, depending on if I milk her before the kids catch her first.

About that much^